Curse

Gill Halendt · Jan 07, 2012, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Every recent thread in the last few months rapidly turns into Elementalists vs Mesmers, with some random example supplied with equally random "record times" to support one or the other. It's getting boring...

Quite frankly, record or not, I don't think Elemental Damage was that efficient before, or it wouldn't have required such an extensive and game-changing update.

Swingline · Jan 07, 2012, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I always knew about that, but my nooby brain told me to run UG + Churning Earth instead, and I filled the HM EOTN mission book several times with ease well before we had 7 heroes.

I thought that if the winter spirit died, the whole team would be screwed and chose not to rely on it. I actually also used a Mirror of Ice hero elly too against destroyers, but you know that no one used to use MOI or Water magic in PVE unless they are noobs, Invoke and Chain lightning is the only thing that apparantly worked.

I'll try out some WoC mobs later today. Ive never done WoC before so it will be new to me.

Invoke was the eles equivalent to discord except instead of being armor ignoring it had a 3 hit AoE component with 25% armor pen and didn't require a prerequisite to deal its damage. When compared to earth magic Invoke just stacked up better but HM can be done with earth magic, especially against destroyers. Destroyers have the same amount of armor against earth that they do with lightning damage, the only difference is Invoke penetrated one fourth of their armor. UG, like invoke, is the best damage elite earth had to offer but up against a pre HM update Destroyer of Bones it did 14 damage a tick with a total of 70 damage every 15 seconds. Invoke dealt 54 every 6 seconds. UG can deal more but it has to hit a balled group of mobs.

The argument of Invoke vs. Searing Flames is ludicrous. Both are bar compression and each have their own qualities. The only reason Invoke was good was because of imbalances not in the skill but in the game. No mobs in game have an innate defense specifically targeted for lightning damage like fire, which is a bigger game flaw than you think because of air magics armor pen qualities.

I thought Invoke a little too power though, I used it for a year on my eles hero team once the 7 hero update went live but I don't think nerfing it with exhaustion was the way to do it. A better alternative would be to bring it down to Chains damage but remove exhaustion from Invoke. Invoke was fun because it was a good skill you could use often. If Invoke or SoS are not allowed to exist as they once were then why the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO is shadow form still around?

Just having -5 damage on Invoke and the 5 exhaustion on its partner in crime would have been perfect.

**cosyfiep** · Jan 07, 2012, 11:14 AM // 11:14

tried it out for a bit today....So-suk-e was happy that he didnt ...well --that he wasnt so bad as he used to be---though since I had always had an ele and a sos rit in my groups I didnt see much difference in the time it took to take groups down...

bhavv · Jan 07, 2012, 11:21 AM // 11:21

TBH I always thought that the Invoke and Chain lightning damage nerfs from 122 + 106 to 95 + 90 hurt them more than the exhaustion nerf does.

If I remember correctly, these two skills always used to cause 10 exhaustion, then they caused none with enchants, and now they cause 5 each.

Everyone of these changes was made due to the abuse of these skills in PVP, and had nothing to do with them in PVE, I simply dont get why they were never split.

If the constant changing of these skills harm PVE as much as people think it does, then why havnt the live team noticed this yet and given them a split?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

If Invoke or SoS are not allowed to exist as they once were then why the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO is shadow form still around?

Well the points to consider are:

- Invoke and Chain lighting changes over the years were 100% based on PVP, not PVE.

- SoS isnt ruined, its damage is just slightly reduced and the skill remains useful

- Shadow form isnt used in PVP, so Anet dont care about it so much, even though it has been nerfed a few times, it still remains effective, as will SoS.

The current Invoke nerf hurts elly heroes only, not players. There are so many equally, and arguably more effective ways of running heroes that this point simply has no significance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

No mobs in game have an innate defense specifically targeted for lightning damage like fire, which is a bigger game flaw than you think because of air magics armor pen qualities.

I also dont understand this. What is the point in there being so many mobs that have higher defense vs fire and burning than any other element? Most people made elementalists because they enjoy nuking, not that nuking was ever actually very valid in PVE.

The only fire build that was effective in PVE prior to this update was Searing Flames introduced in NF, and then in the next expansion Anet decided to completely kill this skill altogether with destroyers being immune to burning. HM always nullified any effectiveness of ellys due to mobs having too much elemental armour and this update is meant to be addressing that.

Invoke was good only because everything else that ellys had sucked in HM. This was the one valid build that pre update ellys could use in HM without relying on their secondary profession, just like the Imbagon build for Paragons. Anet noticed this, and thats why we got this update.

The Invoke and Chain Lightning nerf was again fully based on PVP not PVE, still very surprising that the live team nor Anet have never thought to simply split the skills.

Outerworld · Jan 07, 2012, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Thunderclap could be useful for when I use FD. Nothing else really stands out to me though.

Mintha Syl · Jan 07, 2012, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

If I remember correctly, these two skills always used to cause 10 exhaustion, then they caused none with enchants, and now they cause 5 each.

correct

Quote:

Everyone of these changes was made due to the abuse of these skills in PVP, and had nothing to do with them in PVE, I simply dont get why they were never split.

lazy? Otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

Ok just tried new HM and at the same time churning earth and unsteady ground better usability. I went and see good ol'Kunvie as I do it often and it's also zbounty so...
Counting I changed nothing in my heroes builds (so mostly armor ignoring stuff safe for the earth ele and myself ranger with pet) I found the melee foes dying much faster and being much less harmful (well maybe cause of all that kd :P) and most important the healers manage to do less, I used to remember outcast lasting a bit cause of that but I've seen nothing like that now.
But ele foes...in particular saltspray dragons....they really were much more of a pain. Before they used to insta die at least, now they don't, and counting they use Ride the lightning...yeah, it hurts much more than before, as expected.

Now I really regret not completing desolaztion vqs before this update xD Sandstorm crags, yay!

Relyk · Jan 07, 2012, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Invoke eles are glass cannons with little utility. I obviously don't use them as efficiently as Jeydra and therefore will say that they tend to be inferior to other options available. The update does give me a reason to use Air Magic eles since they hit much harder than they did before.

Now can we all ignore this talk about skill changes and new potential builds and run around happily spamming Searing Flames?

Swingline · Jan 07, 2012, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

- Invoke and Chain lighting changes over the years were 100% based on PVP, not PVE.

This update was PvE oriented and I am sure Anet knew of Invokes involvement in PvE hero setups. Invoke was never a problem in PvP after it's damage was nerfed down to 95. People just bitched because they failed to shield swap after that. Air magic has always been the choice of damage in PvP because of its intended goal, which is to deal single target damage just as water magics goal is to snare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

- SoS isnt ruined, its damage is just slightly reduced and the skill remains useful

The trick is to not ruin a skill but balance it accordingly. SF is imbalanced and should be dealt with in such a manner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

- Shadow form isnt used in PVP, so Anet dont care about it so much, even though it has been nerfed a few times, it still remains effective, as will SoS.

People have quit the game because pugs only get together for SF speed clears. To even have a shot at doing a dungeon or elite area you need with a human group you have to wait weeks for the right zb to pop up. See a problem?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

The current Invoke nerf hurts elly heroes only, not players. There are so many equally, and arguably more effective ways of running heroes that this point simply has no significance.

Didn't you just say people should run what they want to? This nerf took some peoples favorite build away.

bhavv · Jan 07, 2012, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Didn't you just say people should run what they want to? This nerf took some peoples favorite build away.

Yes but people arguing that Invoke was the only top tier elly build, and anything else being 'mid tier' annoys me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

This update was PvE oriented and I am sure Anet knew of Invokes involvement in PvE hero setups.

I could say the same thing about Shield Guardian. Neither Anet, nor the people defending Invoke as the top tier elly build seemed to have known nor understood anything about how good that skill was when used on a E/Mo prot - either on the players or on a heroes bar.

I cant believe that Anet nor the live team understand a single thing about PVE balance in GW, otherwise these kind of updates would have happened many years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

People have quit the game because pugs only get together for SF speed clears. To even have a shot at doing a dungeon or elite area you need with a human group you have to wait weeks for the right zb to pop up. See a problem?

OFC i see the problem. I whined about it back when it was the same thing with Ursan. but now that I have 7 hero teams I really dont care. The only problem regarding things like this is Anets incompetence at balancing the skills for PVE.

After playing with the updated skills for a couple of days, I can clearly tell that ellys are still weaker than the armour ignoring classes. However they have become usable at least without having to rely heavily on their secondary professions.

Outerworld · Jan 07, 2012, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Shield guardian was a non-essential skill on an ER (i.e. easy to replace). Invoke and Chain however, were two major skills in the build, neither of which are exactly replaceable. So no, it isn't the same thing.

Coast · Jan 07, 2012, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Invoke obviously was a problem in pvp, even became better after its nerf because now u could spike even faster.

bhavv · Jan 07, 2012, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

Shield guardian was a non-essential skill on an ER (i.e. easy to replace). Invoke and Chain however, were two major skills in the build, neither of which are exactly replaceable. So no, it isn't the same thing.

I dont think you understood what 'same thing' meant in that context.

It is the same thing that Anet have no clue about skill use in PVE when changing certain skills. If they did then Invoke and Chain lightning would have been split by now, and so would have Shield Guardian. Elementalists, Rangers and Paragons would also have been updated years ago if Anet had any understanding of PVE. Also Shadow form wouldnt still exist.

Every Invoke and Chain lightning change that has ever been made was 100% based on the use of these skills in PVP, not in PVE. And they were never simply split without any good reason for why they shouldnt have been.

I dont see how anyone elses complaints about this is anymore valid than the typical complaints any time a skill nerf affects PVE, with most peoples replies normally being 'learn to adapt'.

Shield Guardian was an essential skill in my build, it was my pre nerf party heal and helped me to breeze through elite areas. Now I have to spec a monk with Healing Burst instead which runs out of energy too fast. There is nothing more valid about whining about the Invoke and Chain Lightning nerfs than any other skill that other players relied on before they got nerfed in PVE due to them being changed for PVP and not using a simple skill split.

Rasudido · Jan 07, 2012, 12:42 PM // 12:42

The update is lacking you can really notice how it was half an update; while some new interesting tools have been given the lack of any good non elite skills is what keeps anything from being interesting.

here are some results that I gathered from testing in HM with some of the skills (done so in WoC areas not wussy areas in HM that werent even a challenge to start with):

Thunderclap- a surprisingly effective support spell, its most important aspect is the long application of cracked armor on a small AoE scale. To be trully useful it would've had to hit more than adjacent range IMO but i do guess that dual status + interrupt is powerful. What really hampers this spell down is the lack of any good Air Magic skills in PvE that mantain pressure other than Chain Lightning.

Chain Lightning- an utter loss; this was the only skill (coupled with Chain Lightning) that made elementalists somewhat viable as damage dealers in HM. Since you cant reasonably use them both at the same time, and you lack any decent non elite skills to compensate it just doesnt work. I dont know why exhaustion was changed from conditional, at least not in PvE.

Glimmering Mark- I had somewhat some success with this skill with arcane echo, using it as a Spiteful Spirit of sorts that deals steady damage rather than conditional. Can work but still a bit on the slow side (thanks to the HP buff) where you usually have to stack 3 glimmering marks on 3 different adjacent targets and hope they don't scatter to get the ball rolling. Def. interresting with EBSoH.

Mind Burn- Seemed Awesome at first decent damage with long burn application but HM most caster classes had more energy than me thanks to multiple exhaustion. Stick to Searing Flames. The update seemed to hurt me more than help me since mobs full of Eles with mind burn just nuke everything now (try Tahnnakai Temple HM to see what thats about).

Star Burst- awesome boost, you can reasonably make a build similar to DWG bombing except using star burst and PBAoE Fire skills, same issue about how you tend to be squishy while at it but you can sort off mitigate that with earth magic. Same as Mind Burn, someone was not paying attention to rebalance monsters in PVE for this update (as if Am Fah elementalist couldnt kill me before now they can insta wipe my party)

Double Dragon and other dual cast skills- more of a PVP toy if anything, im sure one can have fun with this but if you want to run at something and hit damage around you just use Star Burst.

Shatterstone- another decent update which is severely hampered by the lack of any useful non elites. While Shatterstone will go a long way to make water Eles more viable in PvE, a single elite cant cover a whole bar...

----

It has been said in this thread before and after testing I do agree:

1. Invoke Lightning change is a great loss and will continue to be until non elites are revised and rolled in so the support air elites are good.

2. non elite option suck. Fire magic being the clear winner in this update not because of the interresting skill changes it got, but because it has some half decent non elites for PvE. Chain Lightning does not cover the rest of Air, Obsidian Flame got better but still doesnt cut it 100%, water had nothing decent.

Until the rest of the update rolls in and changes to non elites are made Eles have gained very little aside from a few interresting but def. not optimal builds.

Coast · Jan 07, 2012, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Invoke lighting:
Elite Spell. Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...74...90 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Chain Lighting:
Spell. Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...70...85 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Why don't they just make em like:

Invoke Lighting:
Spell. Target foe and all foes near your target are struck for 10...74...90 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Chain Lighting:
Spell. Target foe and all foes near your target are struck for 10...70...85 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

This way they still always cause exhaustion while not creating problems for pvp (don't ball up like headless chickens) and at the same time these skills become better again in pve.
There wouldn't be a need for a pvp-pve split neither.

Swingline · Jan 07, 2012, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

Invoke obviously was a problem in pvp, even became better after its nerf because now u could spike even faster.

Then the skill should have been split.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

Invoke lighting:
Elite Spell. Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...74...90 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Chain Lighting:
Spell. Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...70...85 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Why don't they just make em like:

Invoke Lighting:
Spell. Target foe and all foes near your target are struck for 10...74...90 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Chain Lighting:
Spell. Target foe and all foes near your target are struck for 10...70...85 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

This way they still always cause exhaustion while not creating problems for pvp (don't ball up like headless chickens) and at the same time these skills become better again in pve.
There wouldn't be a need for a pvp-pve split neither.

Thats blurring the lines between fire and air magic.

SF doing 36 damage against margonite dervs still >.>

Laylat · Jan 07, 2012, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Shockwave's Cracked Armour on nearby foes triggers before the damage, which is nice. What I don't get is why the + Earth damage isn't armour ignoring. I was sure that any skill description with a +(value) was armour ignoring.

Example:
Shockwave at adjacent vs 60AR = 51+51+51; nearby = 51+51; area = 51
Shockwave at adjacent vs 80AR = 51+51+51; nearby = 51+51; area = 36
Shockwave at adjacent vs 100AR = 36+36+36; nearby = 36+36; area = 26

Swingline · Jan 07, 2012, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laylat

Shockwave's Cracked Armour on nearby foes triggers before the damage, which is nice. What I don't get is why the + Earth damage isn't armour ignoring. I was sure that any skill description with a +(value) was armour ignoring.

Only for actual attack skills.

Ensign · Jan 07, 2012, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Ensign - lucky you, because I'm crying

/wrist

I probably don't care all that much because I've largely retired my Ele at this point, and have switched almost entirely to playing Warrior in PvE.

While I liked the Air Ele heroes a *lot* when playing my Ele, I was never impressed by them at all when playing Warrior; the second Necro and another Mesmer feel way better there.

I do think it's worth pointing out that I've consistently cleared Hard Mode content faster with an Ele + Ele heroes than with a Warrior + Necro/Mesmer; even Ele + Necro/Mesmer heroes is faster than Warrior + Necro/Mesmer.

I really have no clue what to make of that observation.

Outerworld · Jan 07, 2012, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I dont think you understood what 'same thing' meant in that context.

It is the same thing that Anet have no clue about skill use in PVE when changing certain skills. If they did then Invoke and Chain lightning would have been split by now, and so would have Shield Guardian. Elementalists, Rangers and Paragons would also have been updated years ago if Anet had any understanding of PVE. Also Shadow form wouldnt still exist.

Every Invoke and Chain lightning change that has ever been made was 100% based on the use of these skills in PVP, not in PVE. And they were never simply split without any good reason for why they shouldnt have been.

I dont see how anyone elses complaints about this is anymore valid than the typical complaints any time a skill nerf affects PVE, with most peoples replies normally being 'learn to adapt'.

Shield Guardian was an essential skill in my build, it was my pre nerf party heal and helped me to breeze through elite areas. Now I have to spec a monk with Healing Burst instead which runs out of energy too fast. There is nothing more valid about whining about the Invoke and Chain Lightning nerfs than any other skill that other players relied on before they got nerfed in PVE due to them being changed for PVP and not using a simple skill split.

Shield Guardian was never essential, ER worked fine with or without it. An Invoke build cannot work without the titular skill for obvious reasons, hence the comparison you tried to make isn't exactly accurate. I do agree with you that those skills should have been split however.

bhavv · Jan 07, 2012, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Invoke + Chain Lightning does still work for the player though on with the condition of 'learn to adapt' applied to it (dont spam it as much).

Shield Guardian as a skill was destroyed entirely. ER works with any skills, but the old version of Shield guardian was massively useful for me and plenty of people using E/mos, either themselves or on a hero.

Invoke and Chain lightning are still usable, other skills such as Shield Guardian are not. Even monks dont use the new version of Shield Guardian in PVE, it isnt a valid skill choice for anyone, but its previous form was.

Whether it was essential or not is based on your personal opionion. For me full party heals are 100% essential in high end PVE, and previously Shield Guardian was a way to get this onto an ER Prot build. With that skill gone I now need to add more party wide healing elsewhere on my group setup to compensate, which means is going from an E/Mo prot and N/Rt healer to an E/Mo prot and Healing Burst Monk (or a UA prot and mimicry healing burst backline). Healing burst is a great heal to fit the requirement, but monk energy management is abysmally useless for relying on hero AI to heal in high end PVE, just as much as elementalists used to be for damage.

All these changes, and ones before them continue to prove that PVE is merely an afterthought for Anet. They will only consider making improvements based around PVE several years after people have been raging on about them, and they lack the competence to make a decent, fun and balanced PVE game.